Can I Cast Warptime Again After It Gets Denied
#ane 
Posted 29 April 2022 - 01:53 PM
techsoldaten
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Is there a situation where Possessed are ameliorate than Bloodletters? While unit-to-unit comparisons are not very useful, this one seems important.
I've been working through optimized versions of each of the specialist detachments from Vigilus Afire. Having a hard time coming upward with something expert for Daemonkin Ritualists. Trying to empathise the situation where it makes more sense to accept Possessed instead of Bloodletters.
The first business organization is points. For around the same price every bit 20 Possessed, I can become sixty Bloodletters.
The second business concern is commitment. For half dozen CPs, I tin can deep strike 60 Bloodletters. For 20 Possessed, transport costs start at about the same equally a unit of vii Possessed.
The third concern is offense. The number of attacks per model averages out to almost the same. Bold the Bloodletters become the charge, the Force is the same. Bloodletters take an additional signal of AP.
The fourth business organisation is buffs. I've read the Possessed Uber-Unit of measurement thread, it seems to me, practically, the best they will ordinarily have is Str 7 4+ invul rerolling 1s. And that but applies to the first unit of measurement, a second unit of measurement wouldn't go all those buffs the same turn. Whereas Bloodletters can get Str six / +i attack +two to hit pretty reliably and it applies to all units inside Locus range.
The fifth concern is their battleground office. Both units are there to kill MEQ and GEQ, and they may exist able to impale something bigger with book of attacks. Merely this requires a larger unit. Possessed unit size caps at 20, Bloodletter unit of measurement size caps out at thirty.
Going back to the original question, what state of affairs makes Possessed a better option than Bloodletters? What is it they are there to counter, what advantage do you lot get from listing building, what combination of buffs leads to them getting more piece of work done on the tabletop? I simply don't run into how to optimize around them.
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#2
Posted 29 April 2022 - 02:09 PM
Scourged
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I mean... Not much I could think to add that you oasis't already worked out. Possessed have armor and better toughness, and then there's that. And then they're slightly more survivable. Simply equally you said, for the cost the 'letters outnumber them 3:one, then that's probably a moot point.
Unless y'all're trying to do mono codex csm, I practise believe bloodletters come up out on top. Plus, bringing forth a detachment of them unlocks all sorts of other daemon goodies. And will get you extra
cp to fuel their deep strike.
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#three
Posted 29 April 2022 - 02:32 PM
Panzer
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#4
Posted 29 April 2022 - 03:40 PM
Dr_Ruminahui
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Or if you want to stay mono-god other than Khorne - for example, as my master army is Emperor's Children, a khorne daemon detachment is a bit out of place. 
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#five
Posted 29 April 2022 - 06:36 PM
Doom Herald
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At +1 Toughness and +1 Wound, Possessed are tougher and more than survivable if they are forced to human foot slog. They also benefit from CSM rules. That Uber Possessed thread exploded quickly and I oasis't idea to catch up on all the posts, but off of the elevation of my head...
I plan on marching a 14 man NL NURGLE unit of measurement with a Night Campaigner, Magician, and GP.
Between the Apostle, Sorcerer, and In Midnight Clad, they can have -iii to be shot. Brand the Sorcerer Crimson SLAUGHTER to possibly add a further -ane to enemy units shooting. Prescience grants +1 to hitting. Veterans of the Long War is still an option. Y'all end up with a unit of possessed at a potential -4 to be hit in shooting, -i to be striking in melee, +1 to hit (which ways amend DttFE odds) +i to wound with S6, -3 enemy Ld (-4 with Icon, -6 If you make CS Magician warlord with CS warlord trait), and that'due south before you deepstrike a Poxbringer in aureola range for a bonus to South plus an extra damage on attack wounds of 6+, which is now v+ after VotLW.
It's all situational.
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#6
Posted 29 April 2022 - 06:38 PM
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#seven
Posted 29 April 2022 - 07:18 PM
techsoldaten
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At +1 Toughness and +1 Wound, Possessed are tougher and more than survivable if they are forced to pes slog. They likewise do good from CSM rules. That Uber Possessed thread exploded quickly and I oasis't idea to grab up on all the posts, merely off of the top of my head...
I plan on marching a 14 man NL NURGLE unit with a Dark Apostle, Wizard, and GP.
Between the Apostle, Sorcerer, and In Midnight Clad, they tin can have -3 to exist shot. Make the Wizard CRIMSON SLAUGHTER to possibly add a further -ane to enemy units shooting. Prescience grants +i to hitting. Veterans of the Long War is all the same an selection. You finish upwards with a unit of possessed at a potential -four to exist hit in shooting, -ane to be hit in melee, +one to striking (which means better DttFE odds) +1 to wound with S6, -three enemy Ld (-4 with Icon, -6 If y'all make CS Sorcerer warlord with CS warlord trait), and that'south before y'all deepstrike a Poxbringer in aura range for a bonus to S plus an actress damage on attack wounds of half-dozen+, which is now 5+ subsequently VotLW.It's all situational.
Appreciate the detailed write upward. I see why you would be enthusiastic about that unit / philharmonic!
Assistance me understand a lilliputian better. In what situations practice you wait this unit of measurement to excel? How exercise they outperform Bloodletters?
I go your betoken about marching up the board. Certainly there's the potential to go the enemy to waste a lot of shots. What is it virtually them that makes them the superior threat?
Armchair math for that unit + characters is well-nigh 700 points. That's the cost of xc Bloodletters plus a Herald.
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#eight
Posted 29 April 2022 - 08:12 PM
Doom Herald
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A fiddling over 600.
Really for me it's nearly survivability. Afterwards you throw the Bloodletters into the enemy, they are lower toughness, lower wound, lower Ld, no modifier to being hit in melee. If they don't outright destroy the unit of measurement they attacked, they take heavy casualties. Even if they do, they are left exposed to fire, to which they volition sustain heavy casualties. Probably all casualties will force you to take higher casualties to morale. They hit and and so largely they are spent.
The possessed in improver to higher survivability volition be college Force with a plus to wound and their bonuses are not based on charging. So they remain a fighting force circular ii if needed and if they destroy the unit, they are still protected from most shooting. On top of that, -6 enemy Ld, when most things have around that much Ld basicly ensures that the enemy models slain will well-nigh double in morale or force the oponent to spend
CPto pass.
And then you accept the Characters themselves which will be adding to the death price.
When they striking, they volition striking hard, probably kill the unit and terminate upward in the open up again, virtually unshootable. On top of that, they volition more than easily impale elite units both because the higher Strength and to wound bonus and the fact that leadership hurts multi-wound units more.
Edited past Doom Herald, 29 April 2022 - 08:thirteen PM.
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#nine
Posted 29 Apr 2022 - eleven:12 PM
GreaterChickenofTzeentch
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The quaternary business organization is buffs. I've read the Possessed Uber-Unit thread, it seems to me, practically, the all-time they will usually have is Str 7 4+ invul rerolling 1s. And that only applies to the showtime unit, a second unit wouldn't get all those buffs the same turn. Whereas Bloodletters can go Str 6 / +1 assault +2 to hitting pretty reliably and it applies to all units within Locus range.
Cursed World is a radius, so multiple units of Possessed would benefit. 4++ for all of them. Str six for all units near a Greater Possessed + another 1 with Herald of appropriate god nearby. They can also all reroll 1'southward in a radius with Infernal Ability, for hits and wounds and unmodified half dozen's cause a Mortal Wound in addition if near the Field Commander/Warlord.
Single unit buffs: Warp Fourth dimension, Vessels For the Neverborn, Vets of the Long War, Weaver of Fates (Tzeentch, takes their save to 3++), Delightful Agonies (Slaanesh CSM, ignore wounds on 5+), Miasma of Pestilence (Nurgle,-1 to exist hitting), Prescience, various faction-specific stratagems.
In particular, large units of Black Legion Possessed tin go extra attacks from Merciless Fighters.
Possessed beat out out Bloodletters for immovability, equally they are tougher, take more wounds, and accept access to far more defensive buffs. Offensively, Bloodletters are somewhat similar.
Information technology is also possible to start Possessed on the table and rocket them forwards with vehicle disembark + Warp Fourth dimension + Advancing with Carmine Corsairs/Renegades and then charging:
12 inch typical deployment zone frontline + 3 inches for vehicle disembark + 7 inch move + D6 Advance + 7 inch Warp Time movement + D6 Advance (see current FAQ), plus 2D6 charge, re-rollable with either Khorne Icon or Gaze of Fate (depending on marking and army comp) and/or CP. With typical rolls, yous cease upward covering about twoscore inches of table, including the charge. Blastoff Legion tin can also accomplish something similar without a vehicle via the nine inch boost from Forwards Operatives, though the range will be shorter because they can't Accelerate unless you accept some means to add together it (such as a Slaanesh Daemon Character from a Daemon disengagement nearby for the extra Locus).
Not bad. Bloodletters have zippo first turn charge potential if yous're relying on Denizens + Imprint of Blood.
Yet, most of the same stuff is possible with Berzerkers, at least offensively. Again, they're not as durable.
Tactically, I find that Possessed are far superior to Bloodletters as a counter-accuse unit of measurement if the enemy is coming to you. They can weather condition a little burn down, and so lunge in and smash something that has merely plowed into your lines...and then use consolidation to launch themselves forward and take an offensive role against a weakened enemy. I exercise this often with Slaanesh Possessed in my Iron Warriors.
Edited by GreaterChickenofTzeentch, 29 Apr 2022 - 11:eighteen PM.
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#x
Posted 30 Apr 2022 - 12:29 AM
techsoldaten
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The quaternary concern is buffs. I've read the Possessed Uber-Unit thread, it seems to me, practically, the best they will normally have is Str 7 four+ invul rerolling 1s. And that only applies to the start unit of measurement, a second unit wouldn't go all those buffs the same plough. Whereas Bloodletters can go Str 6 / +1 attack +2 to hit pretty reliably and information technology applies to all units within Locus range.
Cursed Earth is a radius, and so multiple units of Possessed would benefit. 4++ for all of them. Str 6 for all units near a Greater Possessed + another 1 with Herald of appropriate god nearby. They can also all reroll 1's in a radius with Infernal Power, for hits and wounds and unmodified vi's cause a Mortal Wound in addition if near the Field Commander/Warlord.
Single unit buffs: Warp Time, Vessels For the Neverborn, Vets of the Long State of war, Weaver of Fates (Tzeentch, takes their relieve to 3++), Delightful Agonies (Slaanesh CSM, ignore wounds on 5+), Miasma of Pestilence (Nurgle,-1 to be hitting), Prescience, various faction-specific stratagems.
In item, large units of Blackness Legion Possessed tin can get extra attacks from Merciless Fighters.
Possessed beat out Bloodletters for immovability, as they are tougher, have more wounds, and have access to far more defensive buffs. Offensively, Bloodletters are somewhat like.
It is besides possible to get-go Possessed on the table and rocket them forwards with vehicle disembark + Warp Time + Advancing with Cerise Corsairs/Renegades and then charging:
12 inch typical deployment zone frontline + 3 inches for vehicle disembark + vii inch movement + D6 Advance + 7 inch Warp Time movement + D6 Advance (meet current FAQ), plus 2D6 charge, re-rollable with either Khorne Icon or Gaze of Fate (depending on mark and army comp) and/or CP. With typical rolls, yous end upwardly covering about 40 inches of table, including the charge. Alpha Legion can also attain something similar without a vehicle via the 9 inch heave from Forward Operatives, though the range will be shorter considering they can't Advance unless you take some means to add it (such equally a Slaanesh Daemon Character from a Daemon disengagement nearby for the extra Locus).
Dandy. Bloodletters accept zero first turn charge potential if you're relying on Denizens + Banner of Blood.
Still, most of the same stuff is possible with Berzerkers, at to the lowest degree offensively. Once more, they're not as durable.
Tactically, I detect that Possessed are far superior to Bloodletters as a counter-charge unit if the enemy is coming to you lot. They can weather a trivial fire, so lunge in and nail something that has only plowed into your lines...then utilize consolidation to launch themselves forward and take an offensive role against a weakened enemy. I do this oft with Slaanesh Possessed in my Iron Warriors.
Somehow, I forgot Cursed World was an area of affect ability. Thanks for pointing that out.
The ii points cited in the post in favor of Possessed are durability and the potential for a first plough strike. It helps if we go on the comparison apples-to-apples.
Possessed have more than wounds when comparing individual models. Point for bespeak, Possessed accept 2/3rd the wounds as a unit of Bloodletters of a similar cost. But yeah, Possessed practice have a higher toughness and a enjoy a MEQ save along with a 5+ invul (which is shared with Bloodletters.)
With regards to the potential for kickoff turn strike: it sounds similar you are maxim it's possible, in some games, to do this for a unmarried unit, correct? I don't know of a way to bandage Warptime more than once in Matched Play and the mechanics would not work without information technology.
While I capeesh you lot for list out all the potential buffs that lead to that first turn charge happening, how applied is it really to do that? Warptime has a 3 inch range, that means you would need a DP with Wings or a Sorcerer with Jump Pack to continue up with them going the max distance to cast the power in the psychic phase. Bold that really works, there's nevertheless 2d6 of advancing that needs to happen in gild to go there (along with the psychic test.)
Fifty-fifty if they make it into charge range, in what situation is a showtime turn charge really useful? Aren't yous mostly going to be running into screens and crust? I realize that tin vary from list to list, simply, nigh ofttimes, isn't that what happens?
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#eleven
Posted 30 April 2022 - 03:11 AM
GreaterChickenofTzeentch
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The fourth concern is buffs. I've read the Possessed Uber-Unit thread, it seems to me, practically, the all-time they will usually have is Str 7 4+ invul rerolling 1s. And that but applies to the first unit, a second unit wouldn't get all those buffs the same plough. Whereas Bloodletters tin can get Str vi / +ane attack +two to hitting pretty reliably and it applies to all units within Locus range.
Cursed Earth is a radius, so multiple units of Possessed would benefit. 4++ for all of them. Str half dozen for all units near a Greater Possessed + another 1 with Herald of appropriate god nearby. They can likewise all reroll i's in a radius with Infernal Ability, for hits and wounds and unmodified 6'south crusade a Mortal Wound in improver if near the Field Commander/Warlord.
Single unit buffs: Warp Time, Vessels For the Neverborn, Vets of the Long War, Weaver of Fates (Tzeentch, takes their salvage to iii++), Delightful Agonies (Slaanesh CSM, ignore wounds on 5+), Miasma of Pestilence (Nurgle,-1 to be striking), Prescience, various faction-specific stratagems.
In detail, big units of Blackness Legion Possessed can get extra attacks from Merciless Fighters.
Possessed shell out Bloodletters for durability, as they are tougher, accept more than wounds, and have access to far more than defensive buffs. Offensively, Bloodletters are somewhat similar.
It is as well possible to kickoff Possessed on the table and rocket them forward with vehicle disembark + Warp Fourth dimension + Advancing with Crimson Corsairs/Renegades and and so charging:
12 inch typical deployment zone frontline + 3 inches for vehicle disembark + 7 inch move + D6 Advance + vii inch Warp Time motion + D6 Advance (see current FAQ), plus 2D6 charge, re-rollable with either Khorne Icon or Gaze of Fate (depending on marking and army comp) and/or CP. With typical rolls, you end up roofing about twoscore inches of table, including the accuse. Alpha Legion can also achieve something similar without a vehicle via the nine inch boost from Forward Operatives, though the range will be shorter because they can't Advance unless y'all accept some means to add it (such as a Slaanesh Daemon Graphic symbol from a Daemon disengagement nearby for the extra Locus).
Not bad. Bloodletters have zero starting time plow charge potential if you're relying on Denizens + Banner of Blood.
Nevertheless, well-nigh of the aforementioned stuff is possible with Berzerkers, at least offensively. Once again, they're not as durable.
Tactically, I find that Possessed are far superior to Bloodletters as a counter-charge unit if the enemy is coming to you. They can conditions a little burn down, and so lunge in and blast something that has just plowed into your lines...and so use consolidation to launch themselves forward and take an offensive role against a weakened enemy. I do this often with Slaanesh Possessed in my Atomic number 26 Warriors.
Somehow, I forgot Cursed Earth was an expanse of affect power. Thank you for pointing that out.
The ii points cited in the postal service in favor of Possessed are durability and the potential for a first plow strike. It helps if we go along the comparison apples-to-apples.
Possessed have more wounds when comparing individual models. Point for point, Possessed accept two/tertiary the wounds as a unit of Bloodletters of a similar cost. Only aye, Possessed practise have a higher toughness and a relish a MEQ save along with a 5+ invul (which is shared with Bloodletters.)
With regards to the potential for first turn strike: it sounds like you are saying it's possible, in some games, to do this for a single unit, correct? I don't know of a manner to bandage Warptime more than once in Matched Play and the mechanics would not work without it.
While I capeesh you for list out all the potential buffs that lead to that outset plough accuse happening, how applied is it actually to do that? Warptime has a 3 inch range, that ways y'all would need a DP with Wings or a Sorcerer with Jump Pack to go on up with them going the max altitude to cast the power in the psychic stage. Assuming that really works, at that place'due south still 2d6 of advancing that needs to happen in guild to get there (along with the psychic test.)
Even if they make it into accuse range, in what situation is a first turn charge actually useful? Aren't you mostly going to exist running into screens and crust? I realize that can vary from listing to listing, but, nearly oft, isn't that what happens?
Even a DP without wings or a Wizard could keep up because you tin can cast afterward Advancing yourself. Put the sorcerer in the very front when they disembark. He moves vi and Advances. They movement vii and and then Advance. Go out one or two Possessed as a "tail" within three inches of him if the numbers don't line up after the rolls.
And yep, this is one unit of measurement. I listed Warp Fourth dimension as a unmarried unit buff. Pitiful if I wasn't more than clear. As for screens, the Possessed can just smash into multiple squads, and kill enough of each to strength morale issues. If they're fearless, the Possessed should be able to kill their way articulate without dying and survive some boosted firepower. I've had 6 IW Possessed with Delightful Agonies survive getting shot by a double Boxing-Cannon Renegade Knight and then get charged by CSM bikers, kill them, and withal take 2 models left to draw more fire.
Now, if the screens are huge fearless tarpits like Gaunts, that might exist a problem. I personally never depend on Possessed as a master assault unit, nor Bloodletters either because of how fragile the latter are. I use characters, spammed walkers/monsters, or things like Berzerkers as a follow up and rely on Possessed as a stupor unit and fire sink, with all the buffs making them an urgent target and helping them do lots of damage beyond the enemy. Even in a Khorne Daemon army I apply Heralds, Daemon Princes, Bloodcrushers, etc. as the last blow. Any characters I utilize to support the Possessed volition as well be able to help the remainder of the army. Not sure if that's how you desire to exercise things, though. I could run across a big unit or multiple units in Rhinos as a hammer instead.
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#12
Posted 30 April 2022 - 04:30 AM
SanguinaryGuardsman
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Equally someone that plays a bloodletter spam army and possessed blobs long before they were cool....
IMO Bloodletters are much stronger and are going to remove more than enemy models provided you have the CP to spend. If y'all spend 6 cp to put 2x30 bloodletters into deepstrike and requite them banners you lot volition obliterate whatever they charge and potentially necktie upwards all kinds of stuff. Bloodletters can also fight twice if needed for some other 3 cp. This means you pretty much must run double or triple battalion with this many bloodletters since they cannot start on the table being slow and soft with morale issues.
Possessed wont hit as hard unless you really stack up the buffs which gets very clunky and bad-mannered to use and also vulnerable to being countered. To take durable possessed you gotta be alpha legion or nightlords and run them as slaanesh or nurgle. Then you need a sorcerer or a MoP to buff them with psychic powers. Y'all stop up with a blob that needs sure characters to babysit them and you rely on stratagems to brand them tougher/harder hitting. The problem with this is that you dont e'er succeed in casting cursed globe and delightful agonies in the aforementioned turn. Sometimes you lot do but become denied or when your opponent starts shooting your guys and you try to employ In Midnight Clad, it gets Vect'd and your 400 point blob but dies.
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#xiii
Posted 30 April 2022 - 05:47 AM
GreaterChickenofTzeentch
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As someone that plays a bloodletter spam army and possessed blobs long before they were absurd....
IMO Bloodletters are much stronger and are going to remove more enemy models provided yous have the CP to spend. If y'all spend 6 cp to put 2x30 bloodletters into deepstrike and give them banners you will obliterate any they charge and potentially necktie up all kinds of stuff. Bloodletters tin as well fight twice if needed for another 3 cp. This means you pretty much must run double or triple battalion with this many bloodletters since they cannot start on the table being slow and soft with morale bug.
Possessed wont striking as difficult unless you actually stack up the buffs which gets very clunky and awkward to utilise and also vulnerable to existence countered. To take durable possessed you gotta exist alpha legion or nightlords and run them as slaanesh or nurgle. Then you need a magician or a MoP to buff them with psychic powers. You lot cease up with a blob that needs certain characters to babysit them and you rely on stratagems to brand them tougher/harder hit. The problem with this is that you dont always succeed in casting cursed earth and delightful agonies in the aforementioned plow. Sometimes you do simply go denied or when your opponent starts shooting your guys and yous endeavour to use In Midnight Clad, it gets Vect'd and your 400 point blob just dies.
To actually make Possessed shine, the buffs that go on them have to exist things that yous'd do anyhow with the rest of the ground forces, considering otherwise, that's too many moving parts supporting one unit of measurement. Similar you lot said, interfere with ane or more and information technology'south not doing so great. When I field them, I always brand sure to bring other Daemons (usually a DP and Oblits) so that others tin can do good either at the same time or when the Possessed somewhen die.
Bloodletters are more efficient offensively, but more than CP hungry, again, every bit you said. They also tend to be super vulnerable to overwatch enhancers or things like Auspex Scan. Confronting things like Deathwatch, they don't fare besides well. Once I saw a thirty man bomb lose one-half its number to Auspex Scan, and then another 25% to overwatching storm bolters. It killed five DW marines, lost a few more models, then melted due to morale.
I've too seen it happen quite ofttimes that the Bloodletters obliterate what they hit....maybe fifty-fifty impale an unabridged screen in ane Fight Phase, and so something shows up from reinforcements or surges forrard and brooms them off the tabular array earlier they become to do anything else. Seen Tyranids do that to them a few times by leaving no open up backfield and forcing them to crash into a gaunt screen or baiting them by sacrificing something killy like Hive Guard and so countercharge with Stealers, game over.
Bottom line, each is a tool for a dissimilar purpose, merely I think, overall, both are competing with Berzerkers and I'd rather take Zerks in Rhinos than fifty-fifty a big unit of measurement of Possessed. Bloodletters could exist thrown in there as back up for the initial charge because of how cheap they are, relying on the Berzerkers to deport things subsequently on. Everytime I've seen those two as a combo, it gets pretty savage.....though for large stuff, I could come across Khorne Possessed and Bloodletters used together with a Cherry-red Crown Herald and some Warp Talons to deny overwatch. Could be fun.
Edited by GreaterChickenofTzeentch, 30 April 2022 - 05:47 AM.
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#fourteen
Posted 30 April 2022 - 02:17 PM
techsoldaten
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Even a DP without wings or a Wizard could go on up because you can cast later on Advancing yourself. Put the wizard in the very front when they disembark. He moves vi and Advances. They movement 7 and then Advance. Get out i or two Possessed as a "tail" inside 3 inches of him if the numbers don't line upwardly subsequently the rolls.
And yep, this is one unit. I listed Warp Time as a unmarried unit buff. Sorry if I wasn't more clear. As for screens, the Possessed can just blast into multiple squads, and kill plenty of each to strength morale issues. If they're fearless, the Possessed should be able to kill their style clear without dying and survive some additional firepower. I've had 6 IW Possessed with Delightful Agonies survive getting shot by a double Battle-Cannon Renegade Knight and then go charged by CSM bikers, kill them, and still have ii models left to draw more fire.
Now, if the screens are huge fearless tarpits similar Gaunts, that might be a problem. I personally never depend on Possessed as a main assault unit, nor Bloodletters either considering of how fragile the latter are. I employ characters, spammed walkers/monsters, or things like Berzerkers as a follow upwardly and rely on Possessed equally a daze unit of measurement and fire sink, with all the buffs making them an urgent target and helping them do lots of impairment across the enemy. Even in a Khorne Daemon army I utilise Heralds, Daemon Princes, Bloodcrushers, etc. as the final blow. Any characters I use to support the Possessed will also be able to help the rest of the army. Non sure if that'south how you lot want to exercise things, though. I could see a large unit or multiple units in Rhinos as a hammer instead.
I appreciate you for taking the fourth dimension to explain.
While I was aware of this sequence of mechanics, I didn't think anyone was really trying to make use of them. I will certainly chalk up potential for outset turn charge equally a benefit to Possessed.
I think anybody is enlightened of the increased durability. Properly buffed, Possessed do sound like they tin can last a turn or two more against the right army.
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#15
Posted 30 Apr 2022 - 03:27 PM
techsoldaten
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Every bit someone that plays a bloodletter spam regular army and possessed blobs long before they were cool....
IMO Bloodletters are much stronger and are going to remove more enemy models provided yous have the CP to spend. If you lot spend half dozen cp to put 2x30 bloodletters into deepstrike and give them banners you will obliterate whatever they charge and potentially tie up all kinds of stuff. Bloodletters tin can likewise fight twice if needed for another three cp. This means you pretty much must run double or triple battalion with this many bloodletters since they cannot beginning on the table being dull and soft with morale issues.
Possessed wont hit every bit difficult unless you actually stack upward the buffs which gets very clunky and bad-mannered to use and likewise vulnerable to beingness countered. To have durable possessed you gotta be alpha legion or nightlords and run them every bit slaanesh or nurgle. And so yous need a sorcerer or a MoP to buff them with psychic powers. You terminate up with a blob that needs certain characters to babysit them and yous rely on stratagems to make them tougher/harder hitting. The trouble with this is that you dont ever succeed in casting cursed world and delightful agonies in the same turn. Sometimes you lot practice but go denied or when your opponent starts shooting your guys and you attempt to use In Midnight Clad, it gets Vect'd and your 400 bespeak blob merely dies.
Agreed on all points.
Currently, my main list is in flux. I'thousand testing various detachments from Vigilus Ablaze to get a experience for them before I settle on a regular listing.
The one disengagement I'm truly happy with is a patrol with Skulltaker, a Bloodmaster and 2 10 30 Bloodletters with Banner of Claret. While information technology uses vii CP to get everyone to deep strike, I sometimes add a Herald and another unit of measurement of Bloodletters to take it to a Battalion and reduce the CP fire.
They merely hit like a truck and tin wipe anything from infantry squads to Knights in a single plow. The biggest benefit is how 2 big bombs affect an opponent's battle plans, causing them to either turtle upwardly and forgo objectives for a turn; or to spread out to try to deny a expert landing zone (thus creating exposed flanks.) This is happening nearly every game, having this big threat in deep strike oft dictates what my opponent is going to do (and I like it.)
Don't go me wrong, there's counters to a large Bloodletter bomb and some armies are better at information technology than others. Drukhari Talos, in particular, tin can accept a charge, survive with a wound or two, fall back to let for other units to shoot, and so charge in once more via Stratagem. So don't fault Bloodletters for an easy button, deploying them thoughtlessly turn 2 is worse than not deploying them at all.
While information technology'due south easy to sing their praises, this takes us back to the initial set of concerns. Bloodletters and Possessed serve a similar battlefield role, one of things I see as an advantage for Bloodletters is board control. Peradventure the better term is negative lath control, compelling your opponent to make choices to mitigate the bear on of the incoming Bomb. I've noticed this affects aristocracy / depression model count armies far more than hordes, but it's a concern for any army looking to avert the charge.
I can't imagine anything similar with Possessed. My countertactics against Possessed would be the same as with whatever MEQ, specially if they are footslogging. Moreover, the natural counter to a Bloodletter bomb is a bad charge target (i.eastward. a unit of Talos / a Morkanaught / Attack Terminators / crust.) I suspect Possessed are even more vulnerable to this than Bloodletters due to the lower volume of attacks.
One other betoken of business concern has to practise with snipers. I had a couple games where opponents took out my HQs after they arrived. When Bloodletters lose their buffs, they are still a skillful offensive force. Not sure the same could exist said for Possessed. Losing auras / access to psychic diminishes their offense style more than.
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#16
Posted 30 April 2022 - 03:32 PM
techsoldaten
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To really make Possessed shine, the buffs that get on them have to be things that you'd practise anyway with the rest of the ground forces, considering otherwise, that's besides many moving parts supporting i unit. Like you said, interfere with i or more and it'south non doing so neat. When I field them, I always make certain to bring other Daemons (normally a DP and Oblits) then that others can benefit either at the same fourth dimension or when the Possessed eventually die.
Bloodletters are more efficient offensively, only more CP hungry, again, every bit you said. They besides tend to exist super vulnerable to overwatch enhancers or things like Auspex Scan. Against things like Deathwatch, they don't fare too well. In one case I saw a thirty man bomb lose half its number to Auspex Scan, so some other 25% to overwatching storm bolters. It killed five DW marines, lost a few more models, and then melted due to morale.
I've also seen it happen quite oftentimes that the Bloodletters obliterate what they hit....maybe even kill an entire screen in one Fight Phase, then something shows up from reinforcements or surges forward and brooms them off the table earlier they become to do anything else. Seen Tyranids do that to them a few times by leaving no open backfield and forcing them to crash into a gaunt screen or baiting them past sacrificing something killy like Hive Guard and and then countercharge with Stealers, game over.
Lesser line, each is a tool for a different purpose, but I remember, overall, both are competing with Berzerkers and I'd rather take Zerks in Rhinos than fifty-fifty a big unit of measurement of Possessed. Bloodletters could be thrown in there as support for the initial charge because of how cheap they are, relying on the Berzerkers to carry things later. Everytime I've seen those two equally a combo, it gets pretty vicious.....though for big stuff, I could meet Khorne Possessed and Bloodletters used together with a Cherry Crown Herald and some Warp Talons to deny overwatch. Could be fun.
Maybe y'all could aggrandize on that final point a little more than, that each is a tool for a dissimilar purpose. My take is they are both anti-infantry units.
While it might exist fun to talk almost Berzerkers at some bespeak, this is a unit of measurement-to-unit comparison of Possessed and Bloodletters. I'm trying to work out the situations where it would make sense to have Possessed.
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#17
Posted thirty April 2022 - 03:47 PM
Prot
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Don't forget... Deathwatch got hit by losing SIA Beta Bolters (you have to use normal commodities rounds) And then that may change things for you....
I like the conversation and there's some expert stuff here but I do like to accept a more simple expect than some of the complexities hither. I don't personally thrive on unit ideas that layer into ane strategy relying on several things to get right. It just never pans out for me... I come up across an anti-psyker list, or an anti character list (Last night was nasty. Lost 24 wounds from one pull of a trigger on Master of Possession!)
For me it's actually been pleasantly surprising to simply use possessed, greater possessed, and MoP'due south with the Daemonkin Disengagement. I don't have to change my listing towards information technology. I don't similar the Night Apostle and then far, and I don't want to have to feed the unit of measurement a bunch of back up. What this does for me is gives my Greater Possessed a lot of effectiveness past simply using the warlord trait and Strat (if I feel it's warranted). The MoP works fantastic with whatever Daemon type unit and so if happens to be that in that location's a way to have him within cursed Earth range, then dandy... if not, the possessed are adequately cheap on their own. They can operate okay on their own, but can exist leveraged to do some great things with the Warlord aura (half dozen's = mortal wounds on to wound rolls ).
I just like to go on it simple so in my simple universe the only affair I like ameliorate about the Bloodletters is they tin be summoned. And with a MoP I take done it starting time turn deeper into my opponent's zone than they'd similar, and in that location is an advantage to that.
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#18
Posted 30 Apr 2022 - 03:54 PM
GreaterChickenofTzeentch
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To really make Possessed polish, the buffs that become on them have to be things that you'd do anyway with the rest of the army, because otherwise, that's also many moving parts supporting one unit. Like yous said, interfere with one or more than and information technology'south non doing so peachy. When I field them, I ever make sure to bring other Daemons (unremarkably a DP and Oblits) then that others can benefit either at the same fourth dimension or when the Possessed eventually die.
Bloodletters are more efficient offensively, merely more CP hungry, over again, as y'all said. They also tend to be super vulnerable to overwatch enhancers or things like Auspex Scan. Against things similar Deathwatch, they don't fare also well. Once I saw a xxx man bomb lose half its number to Auspex Browse, and then another 25% to overwatching storm bolters. It killed 5 DW marines, lost a few more models, and then melted due to morale.
I've also seen it happen quite oftentimes that the Bloodletters obliterate what they hit....maybe fifty-fifty kill an entire screen in ane Fight Phase, and then something shows upwardly from reinforcements or surges forward and brooms them off the table earlier they get to exercise anything else. Seen Tyranids do that to them a few times by leaving no open backfield and forcing them to crash into a gaunt screen or baiting them by sacrificing something killy like Hive Guard and so countercharge with Stealers, game over.
Bottom line, each is a tool for a different purpose, simply I think, overall, both are competing with Berzerkers and I'd rather take Zerks in Rhinos than even a big unit of Possessed. Bloodletters could be thrown in there as back up for the initial charge considering of how cheap they are, relying on the Berzerkers to carry things afterward on. Everytime I've seen those ii as a combo, it gets pretty savage.....though for large stuff, I could meet Khorne Possessed and Bloodletters used together with a Cerise Crown Herald and some Warp Talons to deny overwatch. Could be fun.
Mayhap you could expand on that last bespeak a piffling more, that each is a tool for a different purpose. My accept is they are both anti-infantry units.
While it might be fun to talk virtually Berzerkers at some point, this is a unit-to-unit comparison of Possessed and Bloodletters. I'one thousand trying to work out the situations where information technology would brand sense to take Possessed.
Bloodletters are effectively ordnance. They kill one target then die. Possessed can really grind their style through a front line over multiple turns to take an objective in mid table for follow up by other forces. They too work as a counter-charge force even if the opponent gets some shots in first.
Basically, Bloodletters are for quick, explosive results. Possessed are for prolonged, dingy fighting effectually mid-table, whether offensively or defensively.
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#xix
Posted 30 April 2022 - 04:00 PM
GreaterChickenofTzeentch
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Don't forget... Deathwatch got hit by losing SIA Beta Bolters (you have to use normal commodities rounds) And so that may modify things for you....
A good mention, but not besides relevant here. Auspex Scan only has a 12 in range and you have to be within 12 in to accuse. SIA Tempest Bolters yet wreck y'all, even on Overwatch if they take a Spotter Chief nearby and/or have gone for the anti-Troop tactics, like most smart opponents volition against Bloodletter bombs. Even Intercessors tin put a skilful dent in y'all, despite their typical AP not being relevant and they require more work to kill.
Likewise, "basic" is a valid way to run Possessed, for certain. I mentioned above that running stuff that other daemon units will benefit from and have it showtime out simply buffing a unit of measurement of Possessed for frontline assault and threat saturation is an easy way to get some value. Knowing how you build lists, Prot, I remember you'd have plenty of other threats to force hard choices.
The meta that I typically run into where I am prizes obscenely high rates of burn down and/or attacks in melee, plus multiple layers capable of either screening or fighting as needed. There's an Obsidian Rose DE army with over 100 warriors and special/heavy weapons everywhere, a large Deathwatch Primaris army with triple "full Gatling" Redemptors that teleport, Tau Fire Warrior Spam, dual Battle Cannon and dual Avenger Renegade Knights, Grey Knights with threescore Strike Marines, Guard with iii Punishers plus Pask in yet another Punisher, Mortar/Wyvern/Hellhound Catachans with massed infantry screens, Necron Warrior Phalanx, Daemonette Spam with over 100 of them, plus Seekers, Alaitoc Ranger/Flyer Spam with D-Cannons and Shuriken Cannon bikes everywhere....the list goes on and on.
Toughness 3 "bolter victims" tend not to concluding long out here without another mitigation, fifty-fifty if they accept a 5++. Equally such, I tend to use Possessed with wound-ignore bonuses when I would use either them or Bloodletters, just to make sure that multiple enemy units have to deal with them instead of 1 enemy unit being vaporized and another vaporizing the Bloodletters in turn. The one exception is if I have something heavy and fast that tin close escrow after the Bloodletters die and I can protect information technology until that moment comes. Generally that terminal bit is how my Khorne Daemon ground forces seems to piece of work.
Edited by GreaterChickenofTzeentch, thirty April 2022 - 04:xvi PM.
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#twenty
Posted 30 Apr 2022 - 04:02 PM
SanguinaryGuardsman
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To really brand Possessed shine, the buffs that go on them have to be things that you lot'd practise anyway with the residue of the army, because otherwise, that'south too many moving parts supporting one unit. Like you said, interfere with one or more and information technology's not doing so slap-up. When I field them, I always make certain to bring other Daemons (unremarkably a DP and Oblits) so that others can do good either at the aforementioned time or when the Possessed eventually die.
Bloodletters are more efficient offensively, but more CP hungry, again, as you said. They also tend to be super vulnerable to overwatch enhancers or things like Auspex Scan. Against things similar Deathwatch, they don't fare too well. Once I saw a 30 man flop lose half its number to Auspex Scan, so another 25% to overwatching storm bolters. It killed five DW marines, lost a few more models, and then melted due to morale.
I've besides seen it happen quite often that the Bloodletters obliterate what they striking....maybe even kill an entire screen in one Fight Phase, and then something shows up from reinforcements or surges forward and brooms them off the table before they get to do anything else. Seen Tyranids do that to them a few times past leaving no open backfield and forcing them to crash into a gaunt screen or baiting them by sacrificing something killy like Hive Guard and so countercharge with Stealers, game over.
Bottom line, each is a tool for a different purpose, but I think, overall, both are competing with Berzerkers and I'd rather have Zerks in Rhinos than fifty-fifty a big unit of Possessed. Bloodletters could be thrown in at that place as support for the initial accuse considering of how cheap they are, relying on the Berzerkers to comport things afterwards on. Everytime I've seen those two every bit a combo, it gets pretty savage.....though for big stuff, I could see Khorne Possessed and Bloodletters used together with a Crimson Crown Herald and some Warp Talons to deny overwatch. Could exist fun.
Maybe y'all could aggrandize on that last indicate a little more, that each is a tool for a different purpose. My take is they are both anti-infantry units.
While it might exist fun to talk nigh Berzerkers at some point, this is a unit-to-unit comparison of Possessed and Bloodletters. I'thousand trying to work out the situations where it would make sense to take Possessed.
Bloodletters are not an antiinfantry unit of measurement, they are anti annihilation.
Don't forget... Deathwatch got hit by losing SIA Beta Bolters (y'all accept to use normal bolt rounds) So that may alter things for you....
I like the conversation and there'southward some good stuff here just I practise similar to take a more simple wait than some of the complexities here. I don't personally thrive on unit ideas that layer into 1 strategy relying on several things to get correct. Information technology only never pans out for me... I come up across an anti-psyker list, or an anti grapheme list (Last night was nasty. Lost 24 wounds from i pull of a trigger on Principal of Possession!)
For me it'due south actually been pleasantly surprising to simply use possessed, greater possessed, and MoP's with the Daemonkin Disengagement. I don't have to change my list towards it. I don't like the Dark Campaigner and so far, and I don't want to take to feed the unit of measurement a bunch of support. What this does for me is gives my Greater Possessed a lot of effectiveness by just using the warlord trait and Strat (if I experience information technology's warranted). The MoP works fantastic with any Daemon type unit so if happens to be that there's a way to have him within cursed Earth range, so smashing... if non, the possessed are adequately cheap on their own. They tin operate okay on their own, only tin exist leveraged to do some swell things with the Warlord aura (half-dozen's = mortal wounds on to wound rolls ).
I but like to keep information technology simple so in my unproblematic universe the just matter I like improve near the Bloodletters is they can be summoned. And with a MoP I have done it first turn deeper into my opponent's zone than they'd like, and there is an reward to that.
I've been pleasantly surprised by possessed with only the MoP and a magician. They soak upwardly tons of firepower are more reliable in shut combat using the detachment.
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#21
Posted thirty April 2022 - 04:08 PM
Prot
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That's very true. It'due south a simple combination of units that have surprised me to be honest. I don't think yous're going to really grab anyone off guard with the combo, but without costing your overall list design mentality, you tin can have a lot of fun with the basic premise of the Daemonkin Detachment.
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#22
Posted xxx April 2022 - 04:33 PM
GreaterChickenofTzeentch
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Bloodletters are not an antiinfantry unit, they are anti annihilation.
Aye. If you want to indicate at just about anything and say "that dies," Bloodletters are great. You just need to make certain....
i. They brand contact without heavy casualties.
two. You take a follow up program for when they are almost immediately destroyed thereafter.
Edited by GreaterChickenofTzeentch, 30 Apr 2022 - 04:33 PM.
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#23
Posted xxx April 2022 - 05:xxx PM
techsoldaten
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Bloodletters are not an antiinfantry unit, they are anti anything.
Yep. If you want to betoken at merely most anything and say "that dies," Bloodletters are corking. You only need to make sure....
1. They make contact without heavy casualties.
2. You lot have a follow up plan for when they are near immediately destroyed thereafter.
Not sure if that'due south an honest characterization of how Bloodletters role or even a valid point of differentiation betwixt them and Possessed.
While it's true to say Bloodletters take uses confronting many things, YMMV confronting dissimilar targets. Charging a Knight is much different from multicharging 4 Infantry squads, it's the difference betwixt removing a model and clearing a quarter of the board.
Sure, your opponent might endeavour to shoot at the Bloodletters, only consider the fact that a huge Bloodletter Flop with HQ buffs only costs about 500 points. If your list is thoughtfully designed, your opponent is shooting at Bloodletters at their peril. Not to mention those models take a 5+ invulnerable, chewing through a unit of 30 or 60 with that takes a lot of attacks.
There are no buffs that turn Possessed into a death star. They are Primaris equivalent and getting them to the point where they stand upwards to a lot of firepower ane) requires a bunch of expensive HQs and 2) relies on a lot of things going right. On foot, those Possessed will ordinarily face at to the lowest degree ane additional round of shooting over what a Bloodletter team would take to face deep hitting.
While all this talk about immovability is entertaining, allow's not pretend some huge deviation actually exists. Practically, Possessed are probably more vulnerable in the ways that matter.
Edited by techsoldaten, 30 April 2022 - 05:30 PM.
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#24
Posted 30 April 2022 - 06:06 PM
GreaterChickenofTzeentch
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Bloodletters are non an antiinfantry unit, they are anti anything.
Yep. If you lot want to indicate at only most anything and say "that dies," Bloodletters are great. You just need to make sure....
i. They make contact without heavy casualties.
two. Yous have a follow up plan for when they are almost immediately destroyed thereafter.
Not sure if that's an honest label of how Bloodletters role or even a valid bespeak of differentiation between them and Possessed.
While information technology's true to say Bloodletters have uses against many things, YMMV against different targets. Charging a Knight is much different from multicharging iv Infantry squads, it's the divergence betwixt removing a model and clearing a quarter of the board.
Sure, your opponent might try to shoot at the Bloodletters, only consider the fact that a huge Bloodletter Bomb with HQ buffs only costs about 500 points. If your listing is thoughtfully designed, your opponent is shooting at Bloodletters at their peril. Non to mention those models take a 5+ invulnerable, chewing through a unit of 30 or 60 with that takes a lot of attacks.
At that place are no buffs that plow Possessed into a expiry star. They are Primaris equivalent and getting them to the betoken where they stand up up to a lot of firepower ane) requires a agglomeration of expensive HQs and two) relies on a lot of things going right. On foot, those Possessed will usually face at least one boosted round of shooting over what a Bloodletter team would take to face deep striking.
While all this talk most durability is entertaining, allow's not pretend some huge difference actually exists. Practically, Possessed are probably more than vulnerable in the ways that affair.
Possessed tin't manage a Expiry Star. Too many moving parts even if you're using auras you would utilise anyway. Agreed. Disposable "Distraction Carnifex" or countercharge unit of measurement, that will exist workmanlike, not stellar, and not your master hammer without far too much effort or huge numbers.
Which ways matter for vulnerability seem meta-dependent to me. Depending on the *rest* of the enemy army, my Thousand Sons would probably rather confront Bloodletters than Possessed and I've seen Bloodletters trivially removed or crippled so many times I've lost count at this indicate. It'due south just not a expert await for the long game if your opponent is very numerous, has ubiquitous Invuln saves on large units, or has lots of out-of-plough shooting (EWO, Forewarned, Auspex Scan, Prescience from The Scourged, etc.). Bloodletters likewise have very trivial defensive utility unless yous want to spend lots of CP to counter-accuse out of deep strike and even then, they'll simply hit one unit hard and and then die without being able to hold a bespeak for long
That said, they frequently do their harm first and if you follow up with something else to capitalize or lead with a tarpit or distraction, information technology can be amazing, like the infamous army with 90 Bloodletters and 90 Khorne Cultists or Reece Robbins' army with a similar-but smaller- setup plus a Skullreaver Prince, Skarbrand, and a Renegade Knight.
Possessed are non going to make that kind of dent, but they can exist just hard enough to destroy that they don't have to, in my feel.
Put simply, if I value offense, I take Bloodletters. If I want some more longevity and the ability to go toe to toe with a succession of enemy units while retaining some competent CC ability, I might have Possessed, depending on my regular army build (how many <LEGION>/Daemon synergies am I already going to utilise?) and likely opponents. I'd honestly rather use either one in conjunction with other assail units rather than on their own.
If you are specifically looking for anti-infantry law-breaking take the Bloodletters. I don't necessarily hold that Possessed make full the same battlefield function and they're definitely worse at that one.
Edited by GreaterChickenofTzeentch, thirty April 2022 - 06:37 PM.
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#25
Posted 01 May 2022 - 03:11 AM
SanguinaryGuardsman
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Lots of points going against Possessed on this thread.
Here is what I think is the best version of them is...
15-20 possessed,slaanesh
Alpha Legion
Night Apostle with the -1 to hit prayer
Sorcerer with delightful agonies and warptime
This is a pretty solid blob that is going to be difficult to remove for lots of armies. You basically just want to blob out the centre of the board or make your opponents deployment zone into a bullgryns breakfast. With some luck you lot volition kill a lot of screening units on the way. Your supporting units will also observe work later on your blob is weakened or lost.
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Source: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/355596-possessed-versus-bloodletters/
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